Is the Tucker Torpedo an American Tatra?

[garplives]

Just visited the Minneapolis Museum of Art and saw a Tatra (87 I believe). Did some searching, and found that the Tucker has many similarities to the Tatra, made in Czechoslovakia in the mid 30's.

Rear engine, Air cooled, triple headlight with steering directional linkage, unibody construction, extremely efficient aerodynamics, top speeds approaching 100 mph,...,

The Tatra 77, 77A and 87 were produced in the early to mid 30's.

I guess the question that comes to my mind is...Isn't it reasonable to assume that Tucker had some (perhaps great) familiarity with this car and used it as a template for creating the Tucker 48?

This would clearly be a novel car for the American market at the time...which would make the Tucker 48 a marketing innovation, but from a design standpoint it would represent a look back (or perhaps more correctly a look to Europe), rather than a look into the future.

Of course there were the safety belts and pop-out windshields, but these aren't really substantive design elements are they?

I don't mean to diminish the man's attempt to break the stranglehold of the Big Three on the market at the time. However, finding out about the Tatra certainly gives me cause to reconsider the 'Legend'.

[TuckerCar]

I don't think there's been any evidence found to suggest one way or another whether Tucker was influenced by the Tatra but undoubtedly there are more than a few similarities.

If you search this forum for Tatra you'll find many old posts relating to this topic.

[Tatra Man]

Hello,

That's my old Tatra you saw at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. Glad it's being enjoyed.

As far as your question about Tatra's influence on the Tucker, there are no "smoking guns" showing that the Tucker Corp. copied the Tatra. However, the Tatra was the most innovative automobile in the world during the 1930s. EVERYONE in the automobile industry worldwide knew about the streamline Tatras , as they were promoted in every trade magazine around the world. However, Tatras were not imported to the United States and the average American citizen would not have heard of them. Thus, Preston Tucker had little difficulty wowing the American public with a rear-engine sedan.

European designers created numerous streamline rear-engine automobiles throughout the 1930s. Between 1934 and 1938, Tatra was the only company to put rear-engine streamliners into serial production. After the Tatra T77 debuted in 1934, American automobile companies, including Ford, created prototype rear engine automobiles, but never produced them.

According to George S. Lawson's (who designed the Tucker Torpedo for Preston Tucker), when he and Tucker first met in 1944, Tucker requested that Lawson design him a rear-engine, streamline, 6-passenger sedan. Interestingly, Lawson was a huge rear-engine advocate in the 1930s, well before meeting Tucker. I believe this is the real reason Lawson was recommended to Tucker for the job.

While researching Tucker history, I have discovered that George S. Lawson was designing rear-engine streamline sedans with features such as cycle fenders, three headlights, and a central driving position, while working for Buick as early as 1937. Lawson later updated these 1930s Buick/GM designs during his 1944-6 tenure working for Preston Tucker, and these updated designs became the Tucker Torpedo. The lineage is unmistakable. Thus, the genesis of the Tucker '48 is derived directly from a 1930s design!

It is also interesting to note that there is a 1947 article in an American magazine that discusses the exotic streamline Tatra T87 (which, humorously, initially debuted eleven years earlier in 1936). Without mentioning names, the writer states that a few large American automobile companies purchased streamline Tatras "a while back" in order to study them. Unfortunately, I have been unable to ascertain what companies these were or when this happened. But judging from the interest in rear engine automobiles in the US during the mid-1930s by some big name American firms, there are numerous possibilities.

[Tatra Man]

By the way, here's a link for the Tatra T87 at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts: http://www.artsmia.org/viewer/detail.php?v=12&id=98653

Here's a second link to a Moderne Art musem in Germany that has an early T87 Tatra in their collection (nice shot from the rear): http://www.die-neue-sammlung.de/z/muenc ... 1_5_de.htm

The Victoria and Albert Museum in London, UK just had a Modernism exhibit where they featured a Tatra T87 as their representation of the ultimate Moderne automotive art object. Here's that link with a good photograph: http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsite ... ts_25.html

Enjoy

[Tuckerfan1053]

Hey, Tatra Man! One of the local car museums has a bunch of Tatras on display right now. Do you want me to get you some photos of the cars?

[Tatra Man]

Hello There,

Thanks for mentioning the Lane Motor Museum of Nashville, Tennessee. I don't know how I forgot it, as Jeff Lane's a friend of mine. Personally, I don't need any photos from there, but perhaps some other Tucker enthusiasts would like them.

Jeff owns a late model Tatra T87 streamliner. From the cowl back it is the same as the 1936-48 version but has a different front end. I don't care for the looks of the late version. But if anyone is interested in looking at the mechanical aspects of the car, there's a good chance the Lane Museum will open the hood or let you crawl underneath. They're very friendly. You might even call ahead and tell them your interest.

The Lane Museum also has a 1938 Tatra T97, which is a predecessor to the VW Beetle. It has a flat four boxer, air-cooled, magnesium/aluminum alloy engine. It is a cheaper version of the V8 T87. It has the same front end as the early Tatra T87's but without the center light. It also lacks the 3 piece windshield and rear louvers of the T87. But it's worth a look.

[Tatra Man]

Yesterday, completely by accident, I stumbled across a very interesting piece of history. It is a proposal for a 3-headlight rear-engine sedan (somewhat Tatra-esque) that was created in 1938 by the famous American industrial designers, Walter Dorwin Teague and Walter Dorwin Teague, Jr. It's published in the elder Teague's 1940 book entitled, "Design This Day" (first edition, Harcourt, Brace and Co.)

Garplives asked the question of whether or not the Tatra might have been used as the template for the Tucker. I think it's important to reiterate that the Tatra was a huge influence to the entire auto industry worldwide, as it was the first mass-produced rear-engine sedan. The fact that Tatra dared to do it basically started a rear-engine sedan craze that lasted throughout the 1930s. Rear-engine Sedans were the vision of the future in the 1930s. It was the avant-garde design philosophy/movement of that era. So, Garplives is right to suggest that the Tucker '48 is a look to the past (and to Europe) rather than a look to the future. Obviously, some people like George Lawson and Preston Tucker were true believers in this philosophy and refused to let it go. While most everyone else gave up on the idea after WWII.

Raymond Loewy actually published automobile styling evolutionary charts in both 1934 and 1940. His 1934 chart shows the future full of Tatra-like automobiles. But by 1940, his chart was dramatically different, more closely resembling what actually happened.

I think the fact that the Tucker is based on a design philosophy/future that never really happened is part of what makes the car so interesting. Then you add all the controversy surrounding Preston Tucker, and you end up with clubs like TACA. Does anyone else find it interesting that people are still arguing whether Preston Tucker was a demon or a saint? Heck, the guy's been dead since 1956, and the car make since 1948!

Incidentally, this Walter Dorwin Teague piece is the first time where I've seen a three-headlight rear-engine sedan design proposal published during the pre-War period! It's a common book that anyone could have had when it was new in 1940. And it's not difficult to find a copy today. Actually, this Teague piece is the only pre-War, three-headlight proposal I've ever seen outside of the George Lawson 1937 Buick proposals which later became the Tucker Torpedo. And only one of these two Buick proposals has ever been published, the first time in a 1978 Special Interest Autos article.

I'll try to see if I can get someone to post the images, as I don't have the capability.

Hampton

[Tuckerfan1053]

You can see the images Tatra Man mentions here: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... Charts.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... mliner.jpg

[Tuckerfan1053]

Here's some pics of the Tucker engine: http://usera.imagecave.com/tuckerfan/engine01.JPG

http://usera.imagecave.com/tuckerfan/engine02.JPG

Here's some photos of a Tatra (note the elements which would go into making up the VW Beetle): http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... ATRAC1.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... aFront.jpg

Here's some photos of Tatra engines, notice that they greatly resemble the VW's design:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... om1936.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... om1936.jpg

[Tuckerfan1053]

Tatra Man found the Popular Science article that he mentioned earlier. You can read it here:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... sci471.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... sci472.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c228/ ... sci473.jpg

[Tuckerfan1053]

I stumbled across a rather interesting page which discusses not only the Tatra and VW connection (with their American roots), but also shows a car that someone tried to launch in the 1970s that resembles a Tatra to some extent. http://thrillingwonder.blogspot.com/200 ... rvels.html

[TuckerCar]

2 of the Fascinations are owned by a Tucker owner.

Wierd that McQuay Norris made a car too. They are still in business today.

[Tuckerfan1053]

The McQuay Norris car (there were 4 of them, I think) were built as demonstration vehicles and traveled the country for a few years to show people how good McQuay Norris parts were and were never intended as production vehicles. They were the suspension version of the Oscar Meyer Weinermobiles.

[TUCKER]

THERE WAS ANOTHER TUCKER KIND CAR BUT WITHOUT THE CENTER HEADLIGHT ON SOME MANUFACTURING MAGAZINES IN 1942/1943. IT LOOKS KIND OF LIKE THE FIRST CAR TUCKER ADVERTISED WHICH WAS MADE LIKE A TOY AND LOOKED LIKE A REAL CAR ON THE ADS. HOW CAN I PUT UP THE PICTURES FROM MY COMPUTER ON HERE??

[Tuckerfan1053]

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